Monday, February 05, 2007

Framer's Law

By now, I am sure that most are coversant with Godwin's Law. Godwin's Law states:

"As an online discussion grows longer, the probability of a comparison involving Nazis or Hitler approaches one."

Here's a new law, in much the same vein,

"As an online discussion thread concerning Mitt Romney grows longer, the probability of an anti-Mormon bigot hijacking the thread approaches one."

Not that this has happened on my site, as our posters are of a little better pedigree, and we do not discuss Romney very much. It is just interesting that there is a subset of people with so much irrational hate that they would use any excuse to attack members of a particular faith.

Just an observation.


x4mr said...

Oh, Framer, such oversimplification from an intelligent and educated folk like yourself.

I've been somewhat less than shy at my place regarding the Mormon religion. Will spare you the links. They aren't hard to find.

The Mormons face a two front (at least) theater. On the left, folks like myself howl at their racism, misogyny, and homophobia.

At their right flank, evangelicals have produced videos, audio cassettes, and other literature lambasting their cosomology that flies in the face and established Jewish and Christian doctrine.

Is irrational hate in the mix? Probably. I haven't heard Pat Robertson or Jerry Falwell comment on men who believe they can become just like God and command their own universe with a harem of worshipping wives.

Would you like to reconcile Christ's teaching with the Mormon doctrine of blood atonement?

There's really no hatred here. Remarkably admirable stories emanate from Utah, where the community handled its own disasters, and everything was resolved before FEMA made it to the scene.

But I won't mince words here. There is something flat out effed up about the notion that a woman cannot enter heaven without her husband's say so.

Are you aware of Mountain Meadows?

Framer said...


There is a proper time and place for a frank discussion of religion, the comments thread of a story about, Mitt Romney, Steve Young, or the President of Jet Blue Airlines is never the place for that discussion. Mormons don't appear to be ones to run away from religious discussion based on the fact that they send out so many missionaries. I'm pretty sure that these missionaries do not crash Bar Mitzvahs, however.

It would seem obvious to me that any attack that would be out of bounds based upon a person being Jewish, Catholic, or Muslim, should also be applied to a person being Mormon.

To your credit, I have not seen you hijack a thread dealing with a Mormon as an opportunity to attack Mormons in general. You have done quite a bit of that on your site, which is your right, but I believe you are better than that. You can have strong views about the Mormon religion, but the way those views are expressed can lessen the effect of your ideas overall, even the ones not related to religion which for the most part are far above average.

If you perceive Mormons as bigots, its probably best not to fight back with what could be perceived as bigotry. I don't say this as a preacher, I say it as a friend.

sirocco said...


I agree with you concerning Steve Young or the founder of Jet Blue. In neither of their careers shuld religion become part of the context.

However, I disagree with you in regards to Mitt Romney. At least in the period of my political awareness politics (and particularly the right side of the political spectrum) has made the issue of a candidate's religion a central part of their qualifications/electability. As such, it would seem a discussion of Romney's religion would certainly be relevent.

Now, this discussion need not (and should not) devolve into rabidness and hatred ... but it certainly is not off limits.

Framer said...

Indeed, Romney's religion SHOULD be part of the conversation, but not part of EVERY conversation. No other politician is subjected to that, Romney should be no different.

It is also proper ettiquite for online participation. I like the tone and tenor of my comments section, where people generally stay on-topic and relevant to the converstaion at hand. I blog in a good neighborhood.

Every lengthy Romney thread eventually devolves into the comments section from the Star, and its a shame, really. Especially since it is the same cast of characters causing it. Anti-Mormonism is not as wide spread as some would have us beleieve. It is especailly ironic as the people who do this generally drive people away from their point of view, due to their hate and mean-spiritedness.

By the way, Jet Blue rules!

Anonymous said...


x4mr said...

I should have returned to this thread sooner. Now that it is not 1 AM, I think I understand your original post better.

I don't know what threads you are referring to, but completely accept you are accurately representing them.

No, I don't hijack threads on any subject, and won't go near those things at the Star or Citizen.

Regarding Mormonism, I posted extensively a couple months ago, and a decent sized interact ensued between myself and some Mormons in Utah. Check for yourself, but I think everyone regarding the exchange as respectable, dignified, and worthwhile.

That said, I did blast Karen Johnson the other day, and I stand by everything I wrote.

If it isn't obvious, I do hold myself to a certain standard, and I do take what I write very seriously. Hopefully it shows.

I have high regard for many of the folks that interact on these sights, including yourself, Sicrocco, Liza, Tedski, Michael, and many others.

For the record, I will take issue with any notion of religious self-righteousness or intolerance, whether it comes from a Mormon or a Muslim.

Framer said...

Or from Al Gore and his private jet rides, right? :)